The American Concrete Institute states that a vapor retarder should be placed directly under a concrete slab on grade if now, or in the future, a low permeable membrane (floor finish) will be installed upon the slab. Thanks for the questions. I am not sure that diamond grinding and an overlay would do any better unless you used some type of pH resistant moisture mitigation product that would help the transmission of the moisture and salts. Obviously, fixing the slab construction the way it is now, would be difficult. Thanks for the question. Im remodeling a home in the Florida Keys. Hello, We have a split home with typical family room downstairs that sits on concrete. ?.all the tile installers i talk to about this seem to have no knowledge of this kind of possible vapor interference with adhering thinset.i want to do this right and feel confident that the tile floor will last for many years! He feels we need to consult with a foundation expert. We havent had any leaks so we are assuming it is coming up from the concrete. This is usually done so the water in the concrete will dissipate and finishing can de done more quickly. We left the boards out for over a week until the floor was dry. Good luck. Thanks for the comment/question. Usually performing a core test is the best way to confirm the presence of a vapor retarder. Thanks for the question. I, personally, have never heard of Drylok, but I can tell you that there are numerous products on the market that can help with issues like you have described. In May I noticed small droplets of water seeping out of the grout lines in several areas, by August 2016 there was grout discoloration in several areas as well as water seepage. Our ins. Thanks for the question. I plan to drill into existing slab and place #5 rebar 24 on center, however I am confused when it comes to pouring up to the stud walls. should be enough. Thanks for the question. We were looking at a lumber liquidator barrier with pre-applied adhesive and would possibly glue the boards in the area where the runs are greater than 27 feet And is natural hardwood not an option? This may help you understand better. My son has severe lung disease and cannot have any mold or mildew. Our luxury vinyl floor was laid directly on top of it. Thanks for the comment. On the other hand, the sheet also helps to ensure there is a break between the blotter layer and the concrete to keep groundwater from entering the slab later in its life. Thank you!! Your thoughts would greatly be appreciated. On new interior slabs, moisture can be easily controlled and mostly eliminated. Any reccomended products that I can use to eliminate the need for an extra underlayment? I am not sure what product was used. If there is, the cost to verify would probably be small in comparison to doing a good mitigation system. thanks. I would probably want to verify if there is an intact vapor retarder, prior to planning. Capillary action can be stopped by installing something called a capillary break, a layer of crushed rock that goes between the subgrade and the slab. The plumbing in the entire house was done in 2018. But I worry that sealing my floor will cause more problems with trapped moisture underneath? Thanks for the question. I hope this helps. we had a plumber come out and fix it by replacing the piping that had a hole in it. It has been there almost for a week, and it is not helping hardly any, of course we have had some high humidity since Ive installed it. I have a 40 X 20 pole-barn type building with a concrete floor, it was probably built in the mid 70s. As long as the slab has a good quality vapor retarder directly under the slab, the concrete has sufficiently dried with respect to what is acceptable for flooring manufacturers, and a reputable type of moisture test is conducted, then I would agree, in theory, there shouldnt be a problem. Hey Jason o have new house build on 2017 and around the 2 sides of the house (this meets with exterior) we got some porcelain floors and just notice the tiles haves some moisture and water drops in some areas ,any idea what is the problem and solution ? Thanks for the questions. Keep w/c at or below 0.5. In the end, follow the manufacturers guidelines to ensure the highest potential for a successful installation. Thank you! They also say they usually use 6milwhich is too thin based on the standard 10mil or more, correct? This question is usually linked to the type of floor finish being installed, so, what type of finish are you installing on the surface of the concrete i.e. I have a slab foundation (on grade), and one room seems to have a moisture issue when it rains. I have no way to answer that for sure. You will need to do research though to make sure warranties for these types of products are applicable to basement settings where hydrostatic pressure may be at play. If you are unable to find the answer in their written documentation, I would call their technical center. I dont claim to be a radiant heat slab construction expert, but I would think you would want things as dry as possible prior to the pour. Take a look at this website https://www.stegoindustries.com/. I installed carpet two years ago when I moved in. The rooms are separated by a marble floor installed in the main parts of the house. Much of what you said Ill agree with but not the part that water will hurt the concrete. Here are a couple of good products to start your research on: http://www.ardexamericas.com/en-us/Products/moistrem/Pages/MCRAPID.aspx, http://www.kosterusa.com/us_en/prodid-95-2300/ct+235-vap+i+2000.html. Thanks in advance! ACI 302.2R-06, Guide for Concrete Floors that Receive Moisture-Sensitive Flooring Materials, estimates that concrete with a w/c of 0.5 will dry to an MVER of 3 pounds/1000 sq. Thanks. Impermeable vapor barriers are those with a rating of 0.1 perm or less while class II vapor retarders are those with a rating greater than 0.1 perm and less than 1.0 perm. This being said, I have a hard time believing that the concrete was dry enough for flooring installation. Hi Jason, arent we afraid of the water in the concrete to be leaked to the sand. Thank you. They have stated that a pea gravel underlay is enough to take care of any possible moisture issues. Some of these challenges include potential hydrostatic pressure (basement below water table) and the lack of a vapor retarder below the slab due to the age of the house. If I wanted to apply the shiplap directly to the slab would I need to install a paint on or plastic vapor barrier, or must I use furring strips? It appeared the mold had been accumulating far before the water damage took place (I had a minor flood the year before but THOUGHT i remedied the drying and cleaning of the carpet myself). Good luck. Good luck. Good Luck. Thanks much for your help. Good luck on the project. What kind of barrier would be best? Our rental home had a slab with laminate flooring glued directly to the slab. Im wanting to lay plywood, cut and stained to look like hardwood floors over our concrete foundation. I am pouring a concrete slab under a pavilion. As long as the concrete is relatively dry, there should be no problem, right? I had someone come out to test for moisture and they found pockets of high moisture throughout the house wherever the wood floor shows the defects. Of course, theres also the moisture that was in the original concrete mixture. I hope this help. Good luck. Thanks for the comments. No frost wall is required per zoning. How can I tell if there is one? He did and the moisture level was at 100%. We put down the recommended barrier with the plastic backing before laying the floor. Is it possible that a temperature difference between the slab and room above the wood is causing condensation to build up under the floor? My installer was half way through the job laying the tile when I realized some of the tiles were hollow to the tapi pulled up some of these tiles to see that the thinset was not adhering to the slab (brittle actually) and in other areas it seemed to adhere fineunder one area of tile we noticed that the thinset adhered but the was some beading water in some of the thinset groves. Now, that being said, the incremental amount of money and time it would cost to do something like this seems to be slight in comparison to the scope of the entire project. It will eventually be turned into a music room with climate control, flooring, etc.. Thanks for the question. If parts of the slab got cold enough to reach its dew point, I suppose condensation could form, but to have it be spotty is indeed strange. I was debating on putting a quiet walk underlayment down, as it is supposed to be more breathable for the concrete, but the manufacturer said it might be best to put a layer of 6-mil poly underneath the underlayment, as well. We are pouring a 2430 patio in central Florida on a sand base . All of the problems associated with moisture vapor movement in a concrete slab will go away in time as the slab dries, as long as there is no source of additional water into the slab. Block foundation, built 1952. basement window will corrected before flooring installation FYI lol. The contractor I hired to form and pour the slab for my free standing garage has poked holes in plastic I had him put down as a vapor barrier. i going to put a new slab over it. Required fields are marked *. any people are insisting i get rid of the carpet because it is a basement and they say it will always have moisture even with a dehumidifier running. I used Healthier Choice Spillmaster carpet padding under my carpet. Good luck. We know we will need a moisture barrier, but because of the issues feel we need to use engineered hardwood vs. natural hardwood. You may want to also look at power vents that may assist with increased airflow when preset levels of relative humidity and/or temperature levels are hit. My uncle had the cooler installed appx 10 to 15 years ago. I get its AZ but am I missing something? If it does find a way to escape, will it get trapped between my walls and cause a problem? Under some building codes the lower strength mix requires the use of a vapour barrier where as the higher strength mix does not. Please help. The top of the slab is basically even with my wood floors and the only thing in between is maybe a 2 to 4 gap at best and some tin or aluminum sheathing in places. I had no idea about vapor issues and concrete so I googled, found your site. I live in the St. Louis area, and its humid in the summer and can feel quite dry in the winter. First and foremost, follow the manufacturers recommendations for a proper, warrantable installationincluding installing the 6 mil. The contractor says that we must have a cracked slab thats letting in moisture and that his installation technique was fine. Within 2 months have orange coloured crystals growing through seams. Do I need to dismantle my rebar and styrofoam to dry the potential puddle sitting on top of the poly? Ive read some of your other posts and Im about to google the epoxy moisture mitigation, which that may or may not be for me. It makes me wonder if that may potentially be a perfect environment for mold growth. my issue is moisture. And what, if anything should be done concerning the vapor barrier? Just a quick one my builder have put a vapour barrier at the bottom of the insulation on a sand base. I really have no recommendations to add. I have no tiling system. The downstairs had 12 x 12 tile, I replaced with 30 x 30 porcelain tile in November. The last thing you want your customers to envision when thinking of a concrete floor is a damp, cold basement slab. Different areas have different thoughts. I would ALWAYS consult your local building code for questions of this nature. Thanks for the comment/question. I have opened the garage doors to dry it out and it gets even worse. The front and one side of the shed will not have walls. You can then measure the surface temperature of the concrete. Great question. Typically, the poly directly under the slab is to make a separation between the concrete and the soil to keep moisture from infiltrating the concrete after a flooring finish is installed. Prior to installing the wood, the wood was left at the house to acclimate and the slab was checked to ensure that the moisture level was acceptable to the manufacturers specifications. Front-line technology produces an extensive line of water repellent products. Unfortunately, a 5 means nothing in most of the finish world. Can you please provide further clarification? My only concern with laying a vapor retarder of that type, on the slab, would be the potential buildup of moisture between the slab and the retarder. Is there anything else I can do to help the moisture level? Thank you. Thanks! They should be able to verify the existence of a vapor retarder and potentially help identify the source of the moisture. All the rooms in the back of the house are reading below 40%. The house is framed, but before we go any further would like to know how we can go about getting objective proof of having a barrier. He said with all the gravel and the French drains along the edges it was not necessary to have the membrane right up to the edges. I am replacing a laminate floor with a new laminate floor (it sits on concrete). Also is 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 trowel best for this size of tile? If it where me and I was building in AZ, I would most definitely want a retarder installed. Thank you in advance for your replies Didnt mean to be long winded, Im still shaking as I type this message. Looking for a low-mold home isnt easy or cheap. Should I use a membrane between before pouring self levelling concrete over the pipes? 2) Try to find a flooring product that is more breathable and/or less moisture sensitive. Well, if this is intended to be a true vapor barrier or retarder, I am not sure why they would have designed holes every 300mm because that really defeats the purpose. However, they cant stop water in vapor form from reaching and entering a concrete slab. What type of moisture barrier should be used and where it should be installed is a subject of debate. claim is taking care of everything related to reconstruction phase, I think. Instead of going back and forth on this (I have questions), why dont you just give me a call: Monday-Friday 7:30am-4:00pm at 800-634-9961 X235. Help me!???? We have a very long run of approximately 34 ft. Several areas including the center of the 34 ft run have become separated and have quite a lot of play in them. I checked the construction photos and do see that a barrier was installed. Thanks for the question. Thanks for the message. Im thinking maybe I need to insulate the cooler floor(top of slab) to possibly help so it would keep the cold from permeating down through the slab (basically raising due point), or some how or another insulate the exterior of slab that is exposed to the crawlspace to keep that moisture from wanting to stick to the cool wall of slab. Thanks for the question. Thanks for the email. It needs to dry and then stay dry to avoid flooring problems. If you are going to do some type of finish, most would recommend a vapor retarder. The contractor removed the visqueen, poured the cement on the dirt in the crawl space, and then put the plastic back on top of the cement after it cured. isnt worth a crap now. I have seen endless builders pour slabs for houses with no vapor barrier. The subfloor will consist of 2 X 6 joists about 1 inch off the slab. And is engineered hardwood any better? What can I paint onto the subfloor to eliminate moisture coming through when it rains? How Many Sensors Do I Need to Test for My Flooring Job? However, it was not my intention to use quarter round which means that I would, instead, bring it up behind the baseboard (which of course gets sealed with caulk at the top). obviously we will lay plastic for the entire floor but thought would be double protection under the footing trenches and posts to protect from moisture. So now Floor & Decor told us to get the issue fixed before they come out and install another floor. Thanks for the comment. After a drain backup ruined the rug we decided to upgrade with a porcelain 624 tile so our floor could withstand any future pipe issues. I have mold issues and am looking for a house. now i am trying to figure out what can i do to have this crawl space safe and not humid I dont have any access to any drains there so i cant put a dehumidifier there . Should I be concerned about humidity build up between the vapour barrier and the concrete? Good luck. Avoiding moisture-related problems with concrete sealers: Reducing bond failures caused by moisture- vapor transmission, Don't let water vapor delaminate your overlay, W. R. MEADOWS White Paper - Tips on Choosing Vapor Barriers. tile, carpet, paint? the slab is mainly structural. I dont believe its capillary action from the water table because when I pull back an area of the plastic, that area dries out in a day or so. Im building my own house and Im at the stage that my main floor has already been polyed, styrofoam installed, rebar done and finishing the loop for my radiant heating. I live in Atlanta, Georgia, and I have a house which is 33 years old with a unfinished daylight basement. So we have to balance the overall system makeup to ensure all parts perform well together. Near a lake but never have had any water of any sort on the floor. 100mm of kingspan insulation has been installed and then concrete base on top. Starting with lower water-cement ratio concrete will let the slab dry faster. We had thought about the vinyl laminate flooring but we are afraid it will mold underneath. The seepage continues. Would you place a vapor barrier against stud wall? unfortunately i did not . 2). Water is puddling up in the low spots (less than an inch) and is appearing as a thin layer everywhere else. This water can move up through the soil and come into contact with the bottom of a concrete floor via capillary action. If that fails, I would track down a flooring sundry distributor in your area and ask them about concrete moisture mitigation options. The mortar in the brick is breaking down and is becoming unsightly. Do you have any recommendations? Hello Jason We are creating a footing for a large piece of equipment that we are installing within our facility. The first thing you need to do is identify if you have a moisture issue and quantify how bad it is. After moving in I discovered, on the stick built 4th exterior wall, a spot of mold on the interior drywall covering the stick built section. Thanks. 2. That being said, there are some coatings companies that use these devices in their installation documents. Were finally ready to deal with it though. We had the carpet replaced in one bedroom soon after we moved in, and the installer recommended that we keep the underlay as it was a good brand and still very new, but it was never lifted. Good luck. We excavated the old floor and dirt put in a layer of gravel, French drains and a sump pump and then covered with a 14mm vapor barrier. Now, if those holes were done after the fact (vapor barrier not manufactured that way) by the concrete finisher, I have seen this. I have a contractor that says half of my garage reads a 5 on moisture gauge and wants to lay down a ristoleum vapor barrier for $1850. Also, would you see a need for wire mesh in this situation? We just built a condition party barn in Middle TN. Vapour barriers are a good idea to prevent radon gas from coming up through any cracks in the floor. I want to put carpet back in my basement as I work on my music projects down there. The contractor said he could rip up all the laminate and put down a vapor barrier, but he said it would be a waste since the laminate floor would act as the barrier. We could find no reason (roof leak, plumbing leak, wall leak, etc.) Exactly why I have zero trust in them. I dont see much issue with slab degradation. I need you help or is something I need to do around the Concret slab?? We have a condo in Florida that is on the ground floor. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Thanks for the comment. Thanks for the question. I dont know if theres a vapor barrier underneath the floor. ASTM International gives specific guidelines in ASTM E1745-17 and ASTM E1643 for the use, installation, and inspection of vapor barriers used under concrete slabs. the barn is on the pad. Ive also mounted a remote hygrometer on joist in crawl space near the slab. And is a vapor barrier under the new to-be-poured concrete needed? Make sure the one you chose covers slabs that DONT have a vapor retarder below. I have had it fixed several times and each time it all comes back. There are various opinions, but this makes sense to me. The same process was performed. Once you know this, then you can try to investigate solutions. The slab has plastic sheeting underneath it already. Thanks for the question. Now i started reading that this was important to do. Again, this is a personal choice. Joe. The adhesive was supposed to be a 2 in 1 adhesive/vapor barrier product. Depending on the breathability of the two rugs you have down on the slab, you may want to keep an eye underneath them to ensure you arent trapping any potential moisture. Thanks! Thanks. Would you also put on expansion joint in? Building a Lake house and we are concerned that our builder forgot to place the vapor barrier down prior to the pour of the slab. Im curious we purchased an older cabin thats on a cement slab when we opened the doors after the winter we found that the floor sweats ALOT! I want to pull up the carpet and padding in the main areas of my home. I would like to install 1224 tile on it but am wondering if I need to apply a vapor barrier or sealer of sorts prior to install? The home (19yrs old) has a concrete slab on grade with a visqueen vapor barrier under the slab. Thanks for the question. Vapor barriers are a way to keep moisture from getting into the concrete. Note: An earlier practice for vapor barriers involved placing a blotter layer between the vapor barrier and the concrete slab. If there is a vapor barrier under the concrete slab in my house, and the laminate installers put a vapor barrier on top of the slab, before installing the laminate, will this not trap moisture in the concrete? Hi, I live in Houston and have an outdoor patio that I had stained and sealed. I am thinking of installing radiant heating in our basement. I have one observation and question I seen here in one of the project where I am working now they are using a vapor barrier under concrete paving with a hole in 300mm spacing in the vapor barrier what is the purpose could you please define. Here are some things I can add for you to think about though: 1. Also, in some of the inquiries I read about smells, and radon. Please help!! Our garage floor gets damp and slippery when its humid out which is often in WI. I have a concrete slab on grade with a plastic vapor barrier below. What could be causing this? The quality of the concrete used (Eg 15 MPa vs 20 MPa / 2175 psi vs 2900 psi) has a large bearing in it. ACI 302.1, Guide for Concrete Floor and Slab Construction, states that the minimum thickness of an effective vapor barrier is 10 mils. Thanks for the question. The second it dries out this reaction stops. Would it be advisable to put a vapor barrier on the floor to reduce any smells? Although it may seem water-tight, this grade of material allows a lot of water vapor to pass through. If the problem persists or is bad enough, you may want to reach out to https://www.nicfi.org/ and see if there is a qualified tile inspector in your area. Once you have this information then a solution would be easier to identify. When he started working I asked him if he measured the moisture in the concrete and he said no he hasnt but it doesnt feel moist. While some building codes may require it, a slab on grade does not necessarily need a vapour barrier underneath. This is great for finishing, but not good for the overall health of the finish that will be installed on the surface of the concrete. Thanks for the questions. There should be more than a 5 degree temperature variation between actual and calculated temperature to avoid condensation (sweating).
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